Torre-Amione: I had the opportunity of gettingto know him [DeBakey] the latter part of his
life,very actively, although I trained here, and
I spent almost the last 25 years of my lifehere in my
training and my professional career.
Lindberg: Looks as if you must have startedat age 12 or something.
Torre-Amione: Twenty-five.
But almost anybody that trained here that'smy generation has had
an impact--DeBakey's legacy and his life,and whether you just participated in training
at Bayloror rotation or you were in the field of cardiovascular
medicine, there was almost nothing that youdo that in some way is not a reflection of
his career and his presence.
So many of us that trainedhere and live here--just sort of an icon that's
irreplaceable.
And his figure is mythical and even ifyou don't have a direct contact with him,
as I didn't for many years, you always feelhis presence
and his shadow.
I don't know how much people talk to you aboutthat, but when I was in
training--this is 20-plus years ago--you wouldcome into DeBakey rounds, and it was sort
of areligious experience.
In his 9th floor office he would sit in frontof the x-ray machine, and he
would look at the films, and he would makehis notes, and he wrote the diagrams and then
thefaculty would sit behind him and give reports,
and then the residents and the interns inthe back,
and just to be able to go into the room wasa big deal, and you didn't have to say anything--but
just the presence of the entire room justwas overwhelming.
Lindberg: That's very interesting.
Torre-Amione: So that was for me my firstcontact with DeBakey, going through rounds
withDeBakey was the highlight of the rotation,
just to have that contact with him.
I mean he carriedthat presence or aura around him.
Lindberg: So was that weekly?
Torre-Amione: Every day.
DeBakey rounds were at four p.m. and thenevery consultant that
worked in--and at that time he would have100 patients admitted to the hospital.
I mean it wasincredible.
They were times of no privacy of information.
You would go to radiology and look atthe list of patients who you have to select
the x-rays and review, and you would see patientafter
patient of DeBakey, DeBakey--so it was a timein medicine where--you don't see that anymore.
It just doesn't exist.
Whether medicine has been transforming which--youjust don't have
individuals like that anymore.
It may be good or bad but in any case, that'sthe way it was in the
past, and just that experience was in andof itself an extraordinary experience.
So throughout mytraining the presence of DeBakey was really
a religious experience for anybody that practicedhere.
If you were in cardiovascular medicine--toa different magnitude.
Now my personalrelationship with him really developed the
later part of his life when he became ill.
He had a lotof physicians, and I was only one among a
group of doctors that would meet with him.
Wewould have meetings and sit in a conference
room, pretty much the way DeBakey rounds werefor other patients.
Dr. DeBakey would come and then you have mostlyvery senior physicians,
significantly senior to me, people that werehis direct colleagues at that time in the
school and so
forth.
And then we'd review different aspects ofhis own personal care and discuss medication
and discuss a strategy.
Then I participated in the area of cardiologywhere he had--1 suppose it's
probably appropriate to mention his illnessas it were.
Lindberg: Yeah, it was all over the newspapers,sure.
Torre-Amione: Yeah.
He had developed a cardiomyopathy and somecardiac dysfunction at
some point, and he was very aware of whathis medical treatments were for that, and
that was myarea of expertise, and so I would come into
the meeting and over time I developed a closerrelationship with him.
I was probably one of the most junior--1 wouldsay among that group, I
was the youngest individual, so I developeda very nice relationship with him, and we
would talkabout different aspects of medicine, and then
he would talk about life in general and thephilosophy of medicine and how one should
be open to different strategies.
I think that he wasvery interested in the latter part of his
life to really explore unconventional treatmentsthat maybe
would be perceived by us as maybe not necessarilyalternative medicine, but just explore or
keepyour mind open to potentially new forms of
treatment that may offer a unique or differentapproach, and I found that really fascinating
because here you have someone who spent hislife
building foundations for scientific practiceof medicine and surgery and cardiovascular
medicine,and someone who is old by conventional criteria--but
a mind that's very young and willing toexplore unconventional strategies with a scientific
twist.
He didn't have the idea of magicalcures.
You know, "If it does work, why does it work?
Let's explore this.
It may be effective inthis way."
I thought that was fascinating.
Lindberg: You know he had a Chinese yew treein his garden.
Torre-Amione: Yes.
Lindberg: I don't know if it was because oftamoxifen or just [that] he liked it, but
he talkedabout it.
Torre-Amione: Yeah, and I don't think that'sa common--1 mean he must have had a unique
set ofgenes that kept him pretty active mentally
and even though, yes, he was biologically--Hewas
perhaps even more open to change than manypeople my age or even younger, so I think
thatwas-
Lindberg: Well, there are young old men.
Torre-Amione: --one of the things that--yes,I thihk that quality was one of--or maybe
perhapsone of the lessons that I had the great pleasure
of really learning from him directly.
Lindberg: He's one of the reasons I'll nevervote for forced retirement at 65.
Torre-Amione: I think that's true.
Lindberg: Him and [Congressman] Claude Pepper.
Torre-Amione: Well, I spent, just like manyother people here, a lot of time with him
towards theend, and the week before he died, he continued
to have ideas about developing a new pumpor
coming up with better strategies for supportof the failing heart.
He would talk about healthcare.
Ihave to tell you that he always said, at least
to me various times, he said the solutionto
healthcare is just to expand the VA systemto the entire population.
Lindberg: I know.
Torre-Amione: He said we already have a systemthat works, just make it open to everybody.
Ifrankly think that's a fantastic idea.
I don't know why no other individual has pushedthat--
Lindberg: And it's one that's ignored.
Torre-Amione: Right, I think people perceiveit as socialized or whatever but the fact
it is--
Lindberg: Well, he said that, on the occasionthey awarded him the Congressional Gold Medal,
to the president and the president, who hadbeen pretty happy up until that [point], turned
beetred.
Torre-Amione: I missed the opportunity togo to that one.
I had a meeting that was scheduled inEurope.
I couldn't cancel it, but I sort of regretnot attending that.
Lindberg: It was sort of fun.
Totally ceremonial but still it was fun.
Torre-Amione: I know, but it's a fun and agood experience to attend.
So I mean the stories likethat--if you ask me what's the greatest learning--you
can talk to a lot of different people, theygive you different stories on how hard he
worked and his ethics and his commitment,but I think
for me one of the greatest lessons from Dr.DeBakey was to work so hard and so diligent,
and atleast in my interaction which may be different
at different stages of his life--was thathis work
ethic is just--
Lindberg: He never let up.
Torre-Amione: --incredible.
I don't think that you have people that areso committed to that to
the point that that becomes their sort ofreligion, their mode of life and without any
interest inwhat people really would go perhaps today--1'11
just share a story today--1 was seeing patientstoday in clinic and a patient told me her
primary physician had "fired" her, and thereason why
he fired her.
She said to me, "Well, you don't come oftento the office.
I've seen you in thehospital only one time last year, it's not
worth my time to spend time with you.
My practice isbooming, I don't really need your money.''
Now what the real motives are, I don't understandthat.
To have a physician to talk to a patient likethat, it's something that would inconceivable
inDr. DeBakey's mind and the way he practiced
medicine.
I think that people have lost that overtime, and I think if we needed to capture
-- you can capture his greatness as a physician,as a
surgeon, but I think these other aspects ofthe practice of medicine will be lost if we
don't keep italive, and I don't think we're going to have
too many people that really practice likethat.
Lindberg: He was a surprisingly scholarlyman; did you ever talk Greek and Roman history
withhim?
Torre-Amione: No, but I talked about WorldWar 11.
I'll share another story with you.
I broughthim to Monterey, my hometown in Mexico, and
we had him attend a meeting with the chairmanof the board who was also the chairman of
a very large cement corporation, and we weresitting
having lunch, and so he's talking about thehistory of cement with this man who's the
CEO of thisglobal company that at that time probably
was the second largest cement company in theworld,
right, so Dr. DeBakey is talking to thesemen about cement, the history of cement and
howcement has evolved through the years, and
so I say, you know, I don't think he rehearsedit, but
how did he end up--1 don't think anybody haddiscussed with him what was this man's company.
So he can handle that, he can handle everything.
Right, so that was just one of these things--
Lindberg: That's interesting.
Torre-Amione: --that are very surprising.
Lindberg: I'm not surprised, but I'm veryhappy that you said it.
Torre-Amione: No, it's really remarkable,and I don't think anybody had briefed him
on thisindividual's area of work.
We were in an academic mission, just havingpresentations at the
university had really very little knowledgeput out.
Lindberg: Well, you know one of the thingsthat he gave us--Katrin gave us--was his drafts
ofmanuscripts, and he wrote ey1 Franqais beautifully.
I mean effortlessly.
His last paper onhealthcare for JAMA, it was just published
as is, practically no corrections and certainlynot
ghost written, for sure not.
Torre-Amione: No, I understand that.
Most of the memories that I have really revolvearound
these very important aspects of somebody'slife that really transcend the practice of
medicine, butI tell you I also took care of patients that
he treated for many years, and we would goand see
them, and he would make rounds at the ageof 99, and we would come up with him, and
he'd beon top of it and he would call them, and even
late in his life he had the same dedicationto take
care of patients.
He knew exactly what he should do.
I mean he was really an incredibleindividual.
Lindberg: It amazed me as well.
Torre-Amione: I think the other importantaspect--it's obvious because of his work,
but I think ifI look at myself, if I could be in a position
of influence like him, I think it's very remarkablethat
you get an individual that could have personallybenefited to a much greater degree of all
hisaccomplishments.
I think a lot of what he wanted to do andreally the way he lived his life,
demonstrated that.
He wanted to build.
He wanted to contribute.
Baylor College of Medicinereally developed because of him.
The medical center here developed becauseof him, and his
endowments, his efforts in trying to promoteeducation and healthcare, even late in his
life thehigh school that he founded, I think are very
great examples that should serve as legacyfor very
successful physicians to come.
Where you can be very successful and happy,but these things
that he contributed really transcend whatyou can do today, are part of his legacy that
I don'tthink many individuals are capable of sharing
that with the world.
Lindberg: No.
Actually, the National Library of Medicinehas an affiliation with Center City
High Schools, and so I asked him about thesuccess of the DeBakey High School here, trying
toshape a strategy myself, and he said, "Well,
Donald, first of all you've got to do it for25 years."
Then it will be different.
Torre-Amione: There's almost no one that youtalk to in the medical center, even younger
generations than me, that won't give you astory that may be this tradition or these
incrediblethings that you hear that go from one generation
to the other, but I think what everybody reallyfeels and understands is that his contribution
to what this medical center is is really unparalleled.
I think his ethics, his work, his commitmentto the patients are characteristics that you
don'treally find in a lot of individuals.
And that doesn't happen often anymore.
Lindberg: No, unfortunately.
Torre-Amione: Especially the way medicineis changing.
That type of commitment is notsomething that we're teaching people to do.
Lindberg: So do you still encourage youngpeople to go into medicine?
Torre-Amione: Sure, but I usually tell peoplethe following.
People come in, they want to spendtime.
I said if your heart is not in medicine andyou feel that you can do medicine just like
becoming a lawyer or being a producer or beingan engineer, do that.
Don't go into medicine.
Lindberg: Yes, I agree.
Torre-Amione: But if medicine is what's goingto make you happy, forget about the money,
forget about the effort, then you'll be happy.
But if you do it as a way to just find anotherjob, I
think that's not the right way to go intomedicine.
Lindberg: Can't stand the first four yearsanyway.
Torre-Amione: Right, but I definitely encouragepeople when they know that that's their passion.
The problem today I think is that people have--1don't think that we have a lot of people that
stillhave that gift of finding something and doing
it because of their passion.
I don't see that a lot.
Lindberg: Well, do you think the DeBakey HighSchool is working?
I mean he really created itin order to get minority kids into healthcare,
not medicine alone.
Torre-Amione: Well, I'm certainly no experton the outcomes of--but we see kids that come
through here, that come in and we have themthrough the summer or that they do volunteer
workor they want to participate in research projects
and without any question I think it givespeople a
connection with a reality that otherwise wouldnot be available for them and just to expose
individuals that otherwise would not see thisis really probably the greater engine to make
themwanting to go into a career in science or
medicine, so I think it's a fantastic ideaand it's a
fantastic program, yes.
Lindberg: I like it very well myself.
Torre-Amione: Yeah, so I think it's great.
Lindberg: I guess, one last thing is did hewant to have the last giant arch [phonetic]
procedure ornot?
Tone-Amione: I talked to him about that andthe answer is yes.
He said he didn't want to die, andI, of course, talking to him after the fact,
he never regretted it.
Lindberg: I've heard him say that.
Tone-Amione: He said he was very happy thathe did have it.
Lindberg: Right.
Torre-Amione: And at some point that he madecomments against it, he certainly doesn't
regrethaving had it, and he was very happy to be
alive.
I'll tell you a story if nobody mentionedthis.
Dr. DeBakey, the last few months of his life--youknow he loved cars and even sports cars.
Lindberg: Yes, oh, yes.
Pedal to the metal.
Torre-Amione: He went and brought a brandnew Porsche.
Lindberg: In a wheelchair.
Torre-Amione: I bought his old Porsche.
I sat with him in the house.
I said, Dr. DeBakey whatare you going to do with this car, which was
a beautiful Porsche that they had broughtfrom
Germany and didn't drive it for years becausethey had to make them US compatible.
So there'sthis beautiful Porsche, and he wanted to go
and buy a brand new Porsche, and he did.
He wentand bought a brand new Porsche and I bought
his old Porsche.
Lindberg: Great.
Tone-Amione: Then I told Dr. DeBakey one time,I said, these Porsche people are pretty
incompetent.
If I was the manager or the owner, and I seeyou coming trying to buy a Porsche,
I'll give it to you for free.
I'll just ask one thing.
I'll take a couple of pictures and use youin an ad,
and I think it would be the greatest ad onearth about our selling sports cars.
Of course, that didn'thappen, but he bought his car, and he broke
his car in, and he was really happy aboutthat, and
eventually he kind of died asleep, and thestory is what it is.
He was full of life even at that time.
When he renewed his license to get insurance,he even made comments about, "Oh, I just need
insurance for another five years or so.''
Because he's 99, almost a couple months closeto his
hundredth birthday.
Lindberg: Well, it's kind of you to sharethe memories with us.
We all knew him and all havegood memories.
Torre-Amione: Very good.
Thank you.
Lindberg: Thanks very much.